I have two main reasons for starting this thread:

1. Some of us like to talk about sex more than others and in more detail than some people are comfortable with.
2. I’ve been wanting to start a thread about Erotica Vs. Porn and discuss/debate the differences.

So let’s just kill two birds with one stone… (and Happy VD btw ).


In an attempt to keep this topic from getting too out of hand (or deleted), let’s establish some guidelines (which I hope will not be a total exercise in futility):


Rule #1: ALL Pictures/Videos containing Strong/Explicit Sexual Content MUST be LINKED and have a DESCRIPTION. Unless it is the type of image you’d see in the main gallery of a National Museum, Link and Describe It. It doesn‘t need to be a long description; just mention the thing about it that is most likely to make people uncomfortable.

[I want both Links and Descriptions because, frankly, some days even I am not in the mood to see a guy fellate himself… kthx. Although I generally detest “porn“, I don’t mind seeing it sometimes for the sake of discussion but: I. Want. To. Have. A. Choice.]

Rule #2: DO NOT post sexual fantasies (or fan fiction) involving any 30stm band members. It will just lead to your post and/or the entire thread being deleted.

Rule #3: DO NOT post links to “shock sites” (or pics/vids that could be described as such). While these images are frequently “pornographic”, most/many people do not find them pleasing to see. If you don’t know what “shock sites” are, I do not recommend doing a search as you may accidentally see images that will haunt and disgust you (they're really nasty--seriously).
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Erotica Vs. Pornography

My Master’s Thesis in Art History was comparing Eastern and Western Erotic Art in the 16th and 17th century so I’ve done a lot of research on these topics.

Generally, Erotica is considered to be sexually-related material that has artistic merit (and is often associated with “romantic love”) while Pornography is sexually-related material having little or no artistic merit and usually associated with the word “obscene” (something that is disgusting, repulsive, or depraved). And both words are also frequently defined as arousing sexual desire.

Obviously, these definitions are problematic. To conservatives/fundamentalists, anything with nudity or involving sexual expression can be termed obscene and is thus considered pornography. To the more liberal-minded, something that is “obscene” can also have artistic merit.

However, the word Pornography derives from pornographos, a Greek word which literally means “writing about harlots”. So the word Pornography is also intrinsically associated with sex as a commercial transaction, sex defined more as a commodity than just as part of human nature.


"In art, immorality cannot exist.
Art is always sacred"-August Rodin


I consider this drawing to be Erotica: Hokusai, Japanese, 18th-19th c.(the genitalia is very exaggerated and detailed, this is typical of Japanese erotic drawings)

I consider the video someone posted here recently of the guy fellating himself to be Porn (and no, I'm not gonna go look for it--it's pretty self-explanatory imo )

What do you think?
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If you don't want to view the link or discuss erotica and pornography, you can just talk about sex...

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Dear Mods: If there is anything you think I need to edit or modify to keep this thread from being deleted, I am more than willing to do so...

*wonders if this is just going to be deleted anyway... sigh*

This has never been done before.

Is that a good thing?

he was being sarcastic

I just popped a movie in, but I will come back and talk to you soon.

item 2. Agreed the definitions are problematic, too subjective what is erotic vs porn I think. It really is an individual thing. I am not very bothered by either. I have seen my share of porn (lots of male roommates) and while I am not bothered by it, it is geared for men and fetishes etc. At least the bits I have seen. I know there is a whole genre of "lady porn", perhaps that is more erotica? I have never seen any.

I also agree with your considerations noted as to how you define each.

Anais Nin? Erotica or Porn? How about Henry Miller.

Ok, I'll be back.

I've had too much wine to participate in here tonight, but it will be an interesting thread I am sure... if it doesn't go poof...

Bolded: that's part of why porn bothers me. It's geared toward men and fetishes in a way that objectifies both women and human sexuality. The other part is the lack of artistic merit--the movies are usually poorly written, directed and acted.

RE: "lady porn", I know there is a whole genre of it but I really am only interested in movies that are generally defined as "erotica".

I've read both Anais Nin and Henry Miller (but not recently) and consider them to be erotica mainly because they are good writers.

I think THIRTYSECONDSTOMARS will be around more often.

IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME, THUS FAR. PROCEED CAREFULLY.

eh, i don't have a problem with porn. if it bothers you, and i don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't you just not watch it? unless it's an under aged kid or something, then i don't really care it's going on. and men get objectified in porn too, so.

You're telling me Dirk Diggler and Reed Rothchild couldn't act?

I think it only objectifies those who allow it too, if that makes sense. And yes there is zero artistic or intelligent merit to porn. It is purely for some carnal pleasure. Low budget, horrid lighting, usually unattractive actors as well as everything else you mentioned. Hence it does not appeal to me, but I am not offended by it. Well in general, I am sure there is some I would find offensive.

Agreed on both writer's also. Although both good writer's and relative to one another - each has a unique style. I think Miller could almost border on pornographic just by nature of his choice of words. It has been a while since I read the Tropic's books, but I pick up Nin from time to time.

Thank you for responding . Could you be little more specific about what you mean by "carefully"?


And that is why I don't watch pornographic films, because they bother me. In terms of magazines and stuff, I found my dad's Playboy magazines when I was pretty young (7 or 8). I spent much more time reading them than actually looking at the pictures (lulz) but honestly, I do think Playboy has much more artistic merit than other "porn" magazines. I remember also finding a Hustler or two here and there and even when I was that young I was put off by the poorer quality of the photos and the writing--it just seemed gross compared to Playboy.

Yes, men get objectified in porn too, because the whole point of it is that the body is just an object for sexual gratification and the images are created as quickly and cheaply as possible just to make the most money possible; sex basically becomes an artless and emotionless spectacle (the emotion that is portrayed is contrived and artificial). It reinforces the assumption that sex is bad and dirty. Honestly, I blame the Victorians for that aspect of it.

Why do we need porn, is it really necessary? Why do we need to dehumanize sexuality... because that is what I think porn does.

I have no idea! I liked Boogie Nights though.


In the making of it, I agree with you (but that's a different issue). But I still think the finished product objectifies human sexuality--there is very little of the subjective experience of having sex, if that makes any sense.

Henry Miller's language didn't bother me, the crudity of his writing as I remember has a humorous and sarcastic tone. Nin got on my nerves for some reason but it had nothing to do with sexuality (I think I just found the tone in her diaries rather arrogant and condescending--can't remember).

I read a lot of Nin. Her diaries are a really interesting look into a woman who had sexual identity issues. She was completely in love with June Miller, but did not consider herself a lesbian per se. She apparently had incestuous relations with her cousin, but then there was a possibility that she had been molested by her father, I believe. She loved her husband but carried on an affair with Miller for years (Henry not June) and also with a couple of other men. I find her fascinating, and as for her tone, I think a lot of writers of that era sort of felt tragic and superior.

I love Miller just because of his brashness. He was edgier, definitely, than Nin, who was a bit more flowery and poetic.

My first exposure to any sort of erotica was actually The Story of O by Pauline Reage. It was quite shocking at 17 years old to read this sort of thing. Would one consider such a sado-masochistic work porn or erotica? When it was first published, it was banned because it was said to objectify women, but the heroine consented to being treated the way she was because of the love she felt for her suitor, who put her through it. Is it objectification if it's a willing and conscious choice?

An interesting fact--the actual author, Anne Desclos, wrote this as a love letter to her lover, who was married to someone else. She was also married. It was her way of saying that she would put herself through the most painful torture just to be with him.

Lady Chatterly's Lover--D.H. Lawrence's novel was also banned for many years for obscenity. Porn or erotica? Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty Trilogy is sometimes seen as some of her best work but I find it more intense than some of the erotica-cum-porn that I've read.

I mean if you read trashy romance novels, the synonyms for the human genitalia border on ridiculous. "Quivering member" and the like. But does that make it erotic, whereas an author using edgier language (forgive if this offends) such as cock, or the other C word (I won't use it because I know some women have issue with it) might be seen as more pornographic because of the reactions on an average basis by most of the general public.

I suppose it's subjective.

Same with film. Obviously Jenna Jameson's work would be considered Porn. So would Ron Jeremy.

What about movies like 9 1/2 Weeks, Wild Orchid, even Unfaithful (because that was a pretty hot movie)?

I think the easy call here is the amount of camera angles focused on the genitalia. Plot is probably indicative as to whether it's porn or erotic cinema. But is it?

Hmm good discussion.

hmmm....believe it or not, i've never seen porn.

just a few seconds of it on a cable channel before it got scrambled.

i think i'm much rather view erotica.

I haven't seen Henry and June in years but I remember it was one of my favorite erotic movies for a long time. I'm curious now to see it again.


Heard of it but never read it. Frankly, I don't think the sado-masochistic theme alone would make it porn. My boyfriend in high school found a porn novel that his dad had that I read. It was a bunch of short stories and it was definitely porn--hardcore sex and torture scenes with no real plot or nuanced meaning.

Did a quick search and The Story of O won a major literary prize in 1955; that alone indicates to me that I would probably consider it erotica. I've been friends with two women who were professionally involved in s/m--one was a submissive and one was a dominatrix. The submissive was actually my roommate for several months. One night she told me beforehand that she and her boyfriend were gonna have rough sex so I wouldn't freak out and call the police. It didn't freak me out because she had made it perfectly clear to me that she was not only willing but also enjoyed it but uh, yeah, it was seriously weird to hear it going on in the next room .

Anyone ever read Jaqueline Carey's Kushiel series (Kushiel's Dart is the first book)? The heroine is a courtesan who is a submissive; she is also trained as a spy and eventually becomes a national hero. It is my favorite series of erotic literature and it has a lot of s/m in it but it is not even close to being porn as far as I'm concerned. I lovelovelove this series. It also depicts a culture where prostitution is sacred--the religion she creates in these books is beautifully realized and complex.

Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake series however (the heroine is a vampire slayer) is much closer to porn than Carey's books; it has less s/m in it but I cannot honestly say they would qualify as erotica simply because the later books have so much gratuitous sex and the writing just isn't that good. However, I can't even tell you how many times I've read some of those books (and there's 16 books... ). Honestly, she writes too fast to put out quality work (Obsidian Butterfly is probably the best in that series imo and there's almost no sex in it whatsoever. She also did an erotic series based on the fey but I only read part of one book--couldn't get into that at all.

I've seen part of maybe 3 porn movies. Just...ewww.

Erotic films: I really like Young Adam and The Pillow Book (honestly, Ewan McGregor's willingness to do full frontal nudity is a gift from god... ).

It isn't unheard of.

I am just a curious person so I wanted to see what the fuss was about. I find it all quite comical myself.

I prefer a tastefully done erotic film, just because I really don't need to see everything. I have a pretty vivid imagination. I mean I can write my own smut (and do and have) if I feel the whim. *shrugs*

Without delving into the concept of fanfiction and the like, I find it interesting that the majority of porn seems to be geared towards men, but the erotica in story form seems to be geared towards (even written by/for) women.

Why do you think that is?

because men dont care about the love story / any plot what so ever.

I think it's kind of simple really. Men tend to be more visually stimulated. Basically it doesn't take much for them to react to stimuli--which is why porn typically has very little plot and a lot of action.

Women need more cerebral/emotional stimuli, even if she isn't remotely romantic. Thus the gentler, kinder sexual explorations in literature and film.

Some women are the exception of course. As are some men. But most often, that's pretty much the cut and dry of it.

But I'm sure there's totally smutty non-plot fiction as well. I just find it interesting - the visual vs the written and how they seem to gear towards one gender or the other.

men are visual.
just plain and simple.
goes towards other things as well, not just dirty things.

because sometimes it's awesome to see someone getting off.

davida

well it is! ;-)

Oh without a doubt! Letters to Penthouse, and the like (I worked at Barnes and Noble--that was most often found in the mens restroom). There are men who can read hardcore stuff and have the same reaction. But for the most part I think, and it is just my opinion really, that men tend to get more into porn because of the visual thing.

Men are also affected by scent. I read somewhere Cinnamon, vanilla, frankincense, lavender, and myrrh directly go straight through the olfactory senses and they are the scents that evoke the most reaction by men. And it can be as simple as a certain note in a certain perfume blend.

I know I wore Bath and Body Works Jasmine Vanilla from their Aromatherapy line for years and had more men compliment me on it than anything I've ever worn.

I actually agree.

I'm one of those gray area females--visuals can be arousing.

I am a photographer though, so I kind of think that has something to do with it.

i also agree that for me, personally, i need some mental f*cking before i can actually f*ck.

Some do.



QFT

In my mind,I think I'd have to prefer erotica and movies like (9 1/2 Weeks, Wild Orchid, Unfaithful ) there are so many others, to porn. To me the build up to the sex, is as important or more important than the sex.
I find the music, lighting, set design etc. to be so distracting in a porn, because it is so bad...so is the acting.
I have not seen that much porn, but enough that I can say it is not a turn on or a turn off but rather a neutral, or mabe sometimes comic relief.
On the other hand there have been sex scenes in movies, that stick in my mind long after, asides from the ones someone mentioned above, I remember the train scene in Risky Business,(notice sometimes the music adds to it a lot) um... the scenes with Antonio Banderas in the movies Never Talk To Strangers, Desperado, Original Sin, Stuart Townsend in the bath with Akasha in Queen Of The Damned, Fur: An Imaginary Portrait of Diane Arbus, some of the sex scenes in the movie Crash.
Maybe it's a "girl" thing, but the mind has to be stimulated too and the cheesy porn just does not do much for me. Even the naked form, it better be in top shape or I prefer a bit of clothing left on. Those porn stars with bad implants and zits on their ass.. no thank you. The movies with bondage and a bit of S&M,....yeah, I'm a sucker for the dominatrix wardrobe. Oh and let's not forget the (filmed locally) Broke Back Mountain ... that scene was kinda hot lmao
As a young teen,I was borrowed sexually explicit novels that my friend would steal from her Dad's stash, I used to read the bodice rippers the historical ones with the rape and pilage. I wrote some erotica back and forth with a guy on the internet, he would start a story, then I'd write, then he would finish, I found it fun and actually had a knack for it, the descriptions lol... Funniest thing is a lot of you would know the guy, who is in a band that is doing quite well, although they were on the verge of breaking up when this all went down a few years ago. I saved the stories but lost it when I lost the hard drive ... oh well time well wasted

PS Asshat... loved that movie The Neverending Story....

Brain wiring is a bit different in men than women. Men are more visual creatures. Women tend towards being able to visualize what they're reading. I saw some study somewhere. I'll see if I can't find it, but it was a long time ago. This is of course not to pigeon hole men as unimaginative pervs. Some men are excellent with the imagination, some women prefer to see it instead of read words about it.


Eww about the porn mags in the bathroom.

Jasmine is supposed to be really close to female pheromones in scent. Men may be more geared to sniffing out a woman than a woman is a man, I have no idea about that one. I just know some people smell good to me and others don't and it only partially has to do with their general health situation.

Depends on if one is capable of utilizing the creative right side of the brain

I have to agree for the most point guys are just wanting to see the deed done. (The first time I typed that I put, dead done. That's a whole nother discussion all together. *shudder* LOL )

As far as the whole written fiction thing goes. I enjoy a good plot with sex involved, but come on every once in a while every one is just horny and wants to get off. That is where smut with no plot what so ever comes into play. LOL

Maybe I'm one of the few females though that likes both erotica and porn. Depending on my mood I'd prefer one over the other.

I use to think that porn objectified people, but lets break it down...those people choose to be there and be paid to do it. They know they are getting paid to be a slab of meat for others to enjoy. I'm sorry I can't really get all that upset when they make the choice to do the job. And it is human nature to look at other people. I'm sorry, but people walk around all the time looking at other humans and think "I'd so fuck that." You don't think..."Oh I'd love to buy them a meal and talk to them about what they think about the world economy and maybe one day we could make sweet sweet love." Nope, sorry. I can't even tell you how many times my husband and I have been in public some place and made a comment about how we'd totally do some random stranger we saw. You hardly ever do, but you think it a ton.

And full frontal Ewan McGregor nudity is a gift from God. I swear I adore that man in so many ways. Young Adam, Pillow Book, and Nora. Nora is a film about James Joyce and his long time lover, Nora. James Joyce was someone too that wrote some really erotic stuff that was considered very disturbing by a lot of people during his time. Personally I think his stuff can be erotic, but he's has such a wonderful descriptive way with words. He can paint a picture in your mind. Some of the letters he wrote to Nora during their relationship are really erotic, beautiful, and heartbreaking all at the same time.

davida ahahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa


Laconic and right to the point, as always.

<3333

EDIT: I liked Young Adam. Quite melancholic but good.

actually, it is a very rare instance where i might find someone that really "does it for me" and i think that.

shut up, jen.

Am the only one who finds The Libertine extremely erotic?

I mean, Johnny Depp as Earl of Rochester even with his clothes on radiated sex all over. From the glares, the expressions and the movements of his hands, to the way he uttered words. Damn. What a fine Actor.

I own that movie, forgot about that one, yep there were some steamy parts in that. I am sure as this thread goes on, we will be reminded of many movies. Mr. Leto has his moments in some of his films as well. I think part of what we think is erotic is the characters, and also who plays them, as I am sure there have been movies and sex scenes, where you were like eeewwww because of who the actors were.. Sylvester Stallone and Sharon Stone, were not a couple with much chemistry... trying to think of others... you can google best and worst sex scenes in movies. How about Troy and Legends Of The Fall with Pitt? Team America??

http://movies.ign.com/articles/952/952751p10.html <--- here is one list 100 steamiest.

Yeah all the true porn I have seen has been rather hysterical. I remember the first time I saw porn. 5th grade maybe? Someone found a movie of their dad's and I had pretty much the whole class over after school to watch it. While eating oreos. I remember sitting there not really even knowing what exactly was going on but trying to understand the storyline. There was a plot - if you could call it that - but yeah there was nothing arousing about it. But it was fascinating.

And my imagination is rather vivid as well. I find this true for most women also just based on conversations.

I saw zombie porn once, it was hysterical. They were using condiments.

true for the most part


Yes I think you are right on this as well. WOmen get more into the mental while men more into the visual. Do women have better imaginations? I know our brains are wired differently but why do you guys think women prefer the mental while men the visual.

I mean take for example (going back to porn) the "money shot" not many women find that hot, men however...

It is also interesting though to say women aren't visual because I think we are. I mean women look at things and people all the time. Women look at other women and find them attractive. While men would almost never say that guy is hot.

I think there is too much sex on tv. Dutch tv that is...
I saw a movie recently "Phileine is sorry" and there was frontal nudity, explicit sex and it's a movie for 12 year and up.

We also have a tvstation called BNN and they had 2 really controversial programs:

- Neuken doe je zo = Fucking goes like this. Yep you got lessons on how to have sex. Kamasutra on your tv.

- Spuiten en slikken = shooting and swallowing. This one was about drugs and sex (hence the title... it could mean something sexual or drug-related). Several drugs were tested in the studio, sometimes even by Dutch celebs. Not just weed, but also stuff like cocaine. Even swallowing the balloons in wich the smuggle the drugs were tested. Someone almost choked on that
And the sex was again tested. Same like the other program. This includes all kinds of fetishes and one of the presenters even starred in a porn movie. What I remember from one episode was people having sex and one hippy-like-woman sitting with them on the bed saying things like "If he likes that you can touch his balls. Maybe he can stroke your clit." and the people behind her followed her suggestion. They also explained threesomes and how you could devide your attention.


It was a bit too much... And I wonder what teens 'learn' from this. Just the techniques without the emotional part? Because the were aiming for a younger audience (under 30).

:|

90% of the new members on this board aren't old enough to be reading this thread...





Haha...Jen you rule.

I looked at some Peter Greenaway films last year at University, The Pillow Book and The Cook, The Thief His Wife and Her Lover. I remember a discussion into how his films are both very erotic and violent, almost to the point of repulsion, as people supposedly get similar pleasure, excitement and fascination from viewing both.

Sorry if that is off topic, it just reminded me of that.

+18

I love Greenaway. The Cook...is a favorite as is a Zed and Two Naughts. Zed is very twisted. And I don't see any of them as erotic at ALL. But yes what people find erotic I guess is rather subjective.

Now Like Water for Chocolate was a bit erotic, more of a love story but more erotic then Greenaway.

What percentage of women are like this? Because I could not be married to a woman that thinks about other men's penises and "adores" them. I just couldn't. Jesus fuck.

I'm going with a Blossom quote on the penis thing: "Naked men look like ... partially decorated Christmas trees"

And I might have known it was a sex thread that would get Russty to post on the forum again!

So we (women) have to be okay with a man that we might be married to or involved with checking out another woman's genitalia (see: porn, Playboy, etc), but if a woman thinks another man's penis (in a movie no less) is attractive OMGthat'snotokay!?

That old double standard.

I'd say I'm probably in that percentage but again, photographer--visual. I don't find much along the lines of a human form unattractive. I like to dress them up with little hats and scarves. *snort* Kidding! Sort of.



I don't know who could have nudged her in this direction. *whistles*

That's true, unfortunately im not one of them so i'll have a look around here.