1582 replies to this topic

[Rothalion]

Ok I finally had time to watch the video and here are some observations. Those who care have fun those who don't...enough said click by that's what the button's for....

1- Manhole hole cover, first reference to the number nine. Nine sections are visible and Nine according to Cirolt: Tenary triangle and represents the complete image of the three worlds. More to come on number nine. The video is in three parts Birth, Life and Death.

2-Wonderful juxtaposition of the bondage woman and the following shot of the Statue of Liberty! Also possible reference to the third glyph with the blue lights on the statue's base.

3-Room 209. 9+2=11, Cirolt again...11  transition, excess, peril, martyrdom. Depending on how you count coffins he falls into the eleventh one. 9x2=18 and again 9 shows up. didn't do anything with 7...dislike numbers. Well for seven in short and related to the bondage seven is the symbol of pain; again Cirolt.

4-Also liked the commonality between the shot looking toward the building Jared jumps from and the linier aspect of the shot looking across the coffins very similar in design ties the two together nicely. Again a lot of perspective play. Focal points and hints at a sort of singularity of psyche. The point where passiveness makes way for violence. Pain with pleasure...fear and courage.

5- Eight photos on the floor. Cirolt: eight symbol of regeneration, and of the spiraling universe. Also comes to play counting coffins.

6-Four Tomo's but only three Shannons? 7 aganin. Is there a multiple Jared I missed?

7- Is it an Albino mouse? Bart reference... Mice have devil connection...still looking. Possible its wheel spinning generates Jared's nightmare. Or does guilt?

8-Coffins..reading through there were many comments... the scene Caught me off guard so...I digress except for counting them. You number smart folks can take it from here. 20 coffins 19 closed equal 39 3x9 27 9.   Add the closed ones left to right vertically 5+4+5+5=19 hence 9 or 8 or 10, add the closed ones left to right horizontally: 4+4+3+4+4= 19. 19 x 19=361 9 again or 19. 19x2=38 11 again. 44344+5455=49799=38. Hence 11. Binary for 11 is 1011 with a 2 below. (no idea how to do that) is that like closed open closed closed? Depending on how you count; the open coffin is either 11 or 10 horizontally  or 13 and 8 vertically. 21x21=441 9 agagin again... or 8...

As for 9 it took Leto 9 days to birth Apollo and was it Artemis? and is it true Christ's cross had a nine nailed to it and that it took nine days for him to die? Nail in coffin.

9- The train is at 59th. 45 9 again. and is that a 56 where Tomo exits the subway. 11 again.  

10- The white rabbit head reminded me of the 'rabbit duck' picture the illusion...Gestalt.

11- What are all those thick black wires along the wall when Jared looks out into the hallway?

12- The kids...Maybe they are the three enemies of the band before the cooperate world, corrupted them? They are in uniform...the enemies in suits...

13- Rosewood...no clue. Regeneration into something you desire, ah...no clue how it fits. Anagram rosewood maybe. He looks as if he's studying the growth of the breasts admiringly, lovingly. Addition: Cirolt: Rose is symbol of perfection/ wood a mother symbol. Perfect mother? I'm reminded of Kafka's Metamorphisis for some reason. Although the phone and the bug scene transition to a shot of the bondage woman's feet and they are bug like. Not in heels like the others.

Did I like the video? Juries still out. It lacks a certain freedom...like its almost too over worked, too crammed with info in some parts and not enough in others. My sculpture Professor would call it a slam dunk. usually not good in that class but.... Almost like they tried 'too' hard.  Enough for now.

[jaime014]

Rothalion, on 12 March 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

Ok I finally had time to watch the video and here are some observations. Those who care have fun those who don't...enough said click by that's what the button's for....

1- Manhole hole cover, first reference to the number nine. Nine sections are visible and Nine according to Cirolt: Tenary triangle and represents the complete image of the three worlds. More to come on number nine. The video is in three parts Birth, Life and Death.

2-Wonderful juxtaposition of the bondage woman and the following shot of the Statue of Liberty! Also possible reference to the third glyph with the blue lights on the statue's base.

3-Room 209. 9+2=11, Cirolt again...11  transition, excess, peril, martyrdom. Depending on how you count coffins he falls into the eleventh one. 9x2=18 and again 9 shows up. didn't do anything with 7...dislike numbers. Well for seven in short and related to the bondage seven is the symbol of pain; again Cirolt.

4-Also liked the commonality between the shot looking toward the building Jared jumps from and the linier aspect of the shot looking across the coffins very similar in design ties the two together nicely. Again a lot of perspective play. Focal points and hints at a sort of singularity of psyche. The point where passiveness makes way for violence. Pain with pleasure...fear and courage.

5- Eight photos on the floor. Cirolt: eight symbol of regeneration, and of the spiraling universe. Also comes to play counting coffins.

6-Four Tomo's but only three Shannons? 7 aganin. Is there a multiple Jared I missed?

7- Is it an Albino mouse? Bart reference... Mice have devil connection...still looking. Possible its wheel spinning generates Jared's nightmare. Or does guilt?

8-Coffins..reading through there were many comments... the scene Caught me off guard so...I digress except for counting them. You number smart folks can take it from here. 20 coffins 19 closed equal 39 3x9 27 9.   Add the closed ones left to right vertically 5+4+5+5=19 hence 9 or 8 or 10, add the closed ones left to right horizontally: 4+4+3+4+4= 19. 19 x 19=361 9 again or 19. 19x2=38 11 again. 44344+5455=49799=38. Hence 11. Binary for 11 is 1011 with a 2 below. (no idea how to do that) is that like closed open closed closed? Depending on how you count; the open coffin is either 11 or 10 horizontally  or 13 and 8 vertically. 21x21=441 9 agagin again... or 8...

As for 9 it took Leto 9 days to birth Apollo and was it Artemis? and is it true Christ's cross had a nine nailed to it and that it took nine days for him to die? Nail in coffin.

9- The train is at 59th. 45 9 again. and is that a 56 where Tomo exits the subway. 11 again.  

10- The white rabbit head reminded me of the 'rabbit duck' picture the illusion...Gestalt.

11- What are all those thick black wires along the wall when Jared looks out into the hallway?

12- The kids...Maybe they are the three enemies of the band before the cooperate world, corrupted them? They are in uniform...the enemies in suits...

13- Rosewood...no clue. Regeneration into something you desire, ah...no clue how it fits. Anagram rosewood maybe. He looks as if he's studying the growth of the breasts admiringly, lovingly. Addition: Cirolt: Rose is symbol of perfection/ wood a mother symbol. Perfect mother? I'm reminded of Kafka's Metamorphisis for some reason. Although the phone and the bug scene transition to a shot of the bondage woman's feet and they are bug like. Not in heels like the others.

Did I like the video? Juries still out. It lacks a certain freedom...like its almost too over worked, too crammed with info in some parts and not enough in others. My sculpture Professor would call it a slam dunk. usually not good in that class but.... Almost like they tried 'too' hard.  Enough for now.

i got confused by all your numbers but i think the point is no one will ever really know what was going on in jareds head unless he tells them

[SpectralTiger]

Rothalion, on 12 March 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

12- The kids...Maybe they are the three enemies of the band before the cooperate world, corrupted them? They are in uniform...the enemies in suits...

The dude Jared`s fighting with is wearing a suit as well and looks pretty corporate (minus the mask). Could that represent their fight with the record label? Maybe the label battle got so into them that they were havin dreams about it.

[mamanchat]

Quick reply.

Rothalion, on 12 March 2011 - 06:55 PM, said:

12- The kids...Maybe they are the three enemies of the band before the cooperate world, corrupted them? They are in uniform...the enemies in suits...

I know someone who knows a lot more about numbers than I do and will possibly love to come talk to you about those points, so I just wanna ask you this for now: did you watch the videos of the Hurricane screenings and Q&A sessions in LA and Sydney? Cause Jared talked a lot about the kids and what they represent for him.

Here - LA:
http://community.liv...stm/265757.html

Sydney:



Also, about the possible multiple Jared: half of the time he's blond, half of the time dark-haired in the vid. But he's been kinda dismissive about that...

[Rothalion]

jaime014, on 12 March 2011 - 11:42 PM, said:

i got confused by all your numbers but i think the point is no one will ever really know what was going on in jareds head unless he tells them

Just think about it....

[Rothalion]

mamanchat, on 13 March 2011 - 03:10 PM, said:

Quick reply.



I know someone who knows a lot more about numbers than I do and will possibly love to come talk to you about those points, so I just wanna ask you this for now: did you watch the videos of the Hurricane screenings and Q&A sessions in LA and Sydney? Cause Jared talked a lot about the kids and what they represent for him.

Here - LA:
http://community.liv...stm/265757.html

Sydney:



Also, about the possible multiple Jared: half of the time he's blond, half of the time dark-haired in the vid. But he's been kinda dismissive about that...

Nope I only really watched it yesterday and only it. What wee bit I posted is just the tip of the ice burg so to speak. This thing is ripe with stuff...omg I love this stuff...its like a game it is a game...

[Rothalion]

SpectralTiger, on 13 March 2011 - 01:59 PM, said:

The dude Jared`s fighting with is wearing a suit as well and looks pretty corporate (minus the mask). Could that represent their fight with the record label? Maybe the label battle got so into them that they were havin dreams about it.

Oh I'm sure! No one likes to be run under by suit and tie types. I am a blue collar type and we hate to have to deal with the desk riding tie breed. I think that the band's disdain for them shows up i K&Q . But what must sting even more is that they have to knuckle under them. Die a little to live a bit...

[Rothalion]

Rothalion, on 13 March 2011 - 10:04 PM, said:

Nope I only really watched it yesterday and only it. What wee bit I posted is just the tip of the ice burg so to speak. This thing is ripe with stuff...omg I love this stuff...its like a game it is a game...

As for the kids He ends up with all the writing on himself as if taking on the kids' sins and trials then stands there arms spread in a classical crucifixtion pose. If you do the research you'll see that cinimagraphically (sp) the out stretched arm pose is indicative of martrydom/sacrifice. See Cool Hand Luke...how many times does Luke strike that pose? A lot! He also spends time in a hole/grave/ coffin before exiting and moving on..... Its a sign of his redemption having the chalk transfered to his body, taking up the kids plight.... Jared and Tomo both are cast from in ch.1 birth from openings....Jared the window Tomo the subway exit. and I guess Shannon when he strip off his leather jacket in the end....openings are womblike...I have to sleep...

[SpectralTiger]

Rothalion, on 13 March 2011 - 10:20 PM, said:

Oh I'm sure! No one likes to be run under by suit and tie types. I am a blue collar type and we hate to have to deal with the desk riding tie breed. I think that the band's disdain for them shows up i K&Q . But what must sting even more is that they have to knuckle under them. Die a little to live a bit...

Oh yeah in K&Q - the guy in the car. I thought it was somehow in relation to the pollution that cars cause. But yeah, I find the corporate white collar types repulsive (most of them, cuz I know I shouldn`t generalize).

It`s sad that artists have to fight with the business as art shouldn`t really be about business but as I found out recently (wink@ M) it always has been about business (I still hold that in certain circumstances art is not about business at all though. Certain criteria have to be met though).

[SpectralTiger]

Rothalion, on 13 March 2011 - 10:52 PM, said:

As for the kids He ends up with all the writing on himself as if taking on the kids' sins and trials then stands there arms spread in a classical crucifixtion pose. If you do the research you'll see that cinimagraphically (sp) the out stretched arm pose is indicative of martrydom/sacrifice. See Cool Hand Luke...how many times does Luke strike that pose? A lot! He also spends time in a hole/grave/ coffin before exiting and moving on..... Its a sign of his redemption having the chalk transfered to his body, taking up the kids plight.... Jared and Tomo both are cast from in ch.1 birth from openings....Jared the window Tomo the subway exit. and I guess Shannon when he strip off his leather jacket in the end....openings are womblike...I have to sleep...

That`s insightful.

Tomo lies on the floor in the crucifix position too, and Shannon spreads his arms as if in that position too when he throws away the knife from his abdomen. Now Jared does that following the kids leaving their marks on him (as you pointed out) and Shannon does it after being stabbed. What about Tomo?

[Rothalion]

About the room number 209...It is needed to show us that he's dreaming. 209 should be the second floor, typically, yet he falls from the top of the building. The slow motion simply backs it. Now then....The book burning...Is that a reflection from a biographical analysis of Tomo's past in his native country. No nice way to put this. But religion tore it apart. Not so much that they are having their religion thrown back at them but maybe that no amount of conflagration can destroy selfish ideology. I wonder too if the rave scene is not a hint at a fear of unbounded chaos. His string trio is a 'quartet' and I think musically the fourth is the bass and the bass tends to harness the group. You follow the bass. Shannon has three selves and through out the video seems to be the more steady character. He is also guarding the bridge. His trial is far less trying than Jared's or Tomo's and the only one that seems to have a  true self interest.

More number stuff. Create a triangle with pythagoras: 4x5x6.4 which is what you have drawing a line corner to corner across the coffins. Halve that; 2x2.5x3.2...the sums of the hypotinuses 6.4 and 3.2 equal 5.9. 59th. street, 45, and 9 again.

The sex. Shock and awe. You might make the argument that the pony play alludes to the mother theme...Jung does ponder that the horse symbolizes the mother since often the horse is used to forewarn of danger....The bondage issue/hidden dark desires could have been dealt with subtly. Im no prude but it goes back to the slam dunk theory. I didn't need an ass crack close up to get the message. Maybe that's what is disturbing. Jared's very dark scenario, against Tomo and Shannon's moderate ones. Its off kilter. Then BAMMM fall in a casket, twist a key, and all's right with world...also the knife used to stab Shannon is an assault knife...a few frames later we see a steak knife. Yet another bias portrayed. Go figure you have Jared speaking out against cooperate persecution by being the perpertrator of gagging and blinding a submissive partner. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Or is ALL of it a dream?

[AmanitaVirosa]

SpectralTiger, on 14 March 2011 - 01:42 PM, said:

It`s sad that artists have to fight with the business as art shouldn`t really be about business but as I found out recently (wink@ M) it always has been about business (I still hold that in certain circumstances art is not about business at all though. Certain criteria have to be met though).

You will be happy to know Joseph Campbell (you remember him, he's "The Power of Myth" guy http://jaredleto.com.../02/leavesmyth/ ) has already argued this point for you, citing James Joyce, "The Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man." He defines it as the difference between "proper" and "improper" art. You want the short version?

[SpectralTiger]

AmanitaVirosa, on 15 March 2011 - 07:09 AM, said:

You will be happy to know Joseph Campbell (you remember him, he's "The Power of Myth" guy http://jaredleto.com.../02/leavesmyth/ ) has already argued this point for you, citing James Joyce, "The Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man." He defines it as the difference between "proper" and "improper" art. You want the short version?

Yes please, in the usual format, when you get a chance

[AmanitaVirosa]

SpectralTiger, on 15 March 2011 - 10:34 AM, said:

Yes please, in the usual format, when you get a chance

Let's do it here, since I'm sort of thinking about what Jared said about "corporate pornography" at the Q&A.

"Of the many statements by practicing artists of the first principles of their craft, the most lucid, concise, and helpful that I have been able to find is that of James Joyce in the last chapter of ["A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man"], where he distinguishes between what he refers to as 'proper' and 'inproper' art...

Improper art is of two orders: art that excites desire for the represented object, and art that arouses loathing or fear of it. Art that excited desire Joyce calls pornographic. All advertising art is in this sense pornographic, since it is intended that the viewer should desire to possess in some manner the object represented. Portraits are pornographic if they are no more than likenesses... Likewise, a landscape that is of interest rather as the advertisement or souvenir of some noteworthy place...

Art that arouses loathing or fear, Joyce terms didactic. Derogatory satire, portrayal, and social criticism are didactic and therefore, in Joyce's sense, improper art... sociopolitical didacticity has in many quarters become regarded even as the sole justification of art, which is otherwise 'escapism' and 'ivory tower.'

All 'improper' art whether pornographic or didactic, thus moves one, or at least is meant to move one, to action, either with desire towards the object, or with fear and loathing away from it. It is therefore, as Joyce says, kinetic, whereas 'proper' art is static. We speak of esthetic arrest... In Joyce's words, 'The mind is arrested and raised above desire and loathing.'

It is this elevation of mind and, with the mind, the eye, above desire and loathing, desire and fear, that brings the way of art and the artist into relation to that of the mystic."

- Joseph Campbell

I am not, by the way, implying that Mr. Cubbins is some kind of mystic. (That, I believe, seems to be Shannon's calling.)

[ArgosIsMyLover]

SpectralTiger, on 04 March 2011 - 01:33 PM, said:

hehe, thanks. I meant that all rapists and serial killers almost certainly always do have twisted sexual fantasies which is not the same as saying that all people who have twisted sexual fantasies are rapists and/or serial killers. Hope that makes it clearer ;P

Thanks for clearing that up!!

Silk and Steel, on 04 March 2011 - 03:24 PM, said:

So THATS what was up with that shadow tapping on my window the other night then  

Oh boy.. He's struck again?! He's like Santa Claus...  

[will8929]

Ahaha, watched this video for the first time the other day.
Hats off to them it's a great video.
But lol, wtf?

I suspect they just included as many leads as possible just to fuck us up.
Let's include a few number nines in there; see if those muppets find some meaning in that.
Let's include a guy with a rabbit hat on; see what they get from that.
Let's include some random kids doing some graffiti, I'm sure they'll find some meaning in that.
Some sex? Why not...
But wierd, kinky bondage sex, yeeah, they'll definately find some hidden symbolism in that.
But don't just present it to them straight, let's have some image montages, fire the kinky sex at them at super speed, that'll get them reeling.
A few men with tits, that'll spark some controversy.
Why not a man in a mask? Give him a hammer and make him chase a guy with uber legs.
That should just about be enough to spark a good thousand page long debate as to the movie's meaning on the forum.
All in a days work...

[Rothalion]

'The mind is arrested and raised above desire and loathing.'

So 'Proper' art raises us above desire and loathing? and fear....would a mystic therefore be put off by improper art?  Reminds of Eyefalls again. He always reiterated that when looking at art or creating art one should ask "What does this do for me?"

If a mystic creates a work that inspires/moves one down a path toward mysticism would that then be pornographic?

If we look at the video in terms of didacticity...no never mind that for now...why 'is' the gimp chasing Jared? Why is he dressed like that if he is seemingly defending the bondage women? He did not put the photos at the door. Is he the PIMP? Is he propriety hidden...now I have to watch again...Tomo's guy and Jared's guy are different... For that matter Tomo's guy reminds me of Shannon...so for a Rambling train of thought blurb.

[Rothalion]

Hmmm capricorn video boy listening to muddy hole...and now Jared listening at wharehouse door.

[SpectralTiger]

AmanitaVirosa, on 15 March 2011 - 12:40 PM, said:

Let's do it here, since I'm sort of thinking about what Jared said about "corporate pornography" at the Q&A.

"Of the many statements by practicing artists of the first principles of their craft, the most lucid, concise, and helpful that I have been able to find is that of James Joyce in the last chapter of ["A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man"], where he distinguishes between what he refers to as 'proper' and 'inproper' art...

Improper art is of two orders: art that excites desire for the represented object, and art that arouses loathing or fear of it. Art that excited desire Joyce calls pornographic. All advertising art is in this sense pornographic, since it is intended that the viewer should desire to possess in some manner the object represented. Portraits are pornographic if they are no more than likenesses... Likewise, a landscape that is of interest rather as the advertisement or souvenir of some noteworthy place...

Art that arouses loathing or fear, Joyce terms didactic. Derogatory satire, portrayal, and social criticism are didactic and therefore, in Joyce's sense, improper art... sociopolitical didacticity has in many quarters become regarded even as the sole justification of art, which is otherwise 'escapism' and 'ivory tower.'

All 'improper' art whether pornographic or didactic, thus moves one, or at least is meant to move one, to action, either with desire towards the object, or with fear and loathing away from it. It is therefore, as Joyce says, kinetic, whereas 'proper' art is static. We speak of esthetic arrest... In Joyce's words, 'The mind is arrested and raised above desire and loathing.'

It is this elevation of mind and, with the mind, the eye, above desire and loathing, desire and fear, that brings the way of art and the artist into relation to that of the mystic."

- Joseph Campbell

I am not, by the way, implying that Mr. Cubbins is some kind of mystic. (That, I believe, seems to be Shannon's calling.)

From this I understand that the sort of art I was telling you earlier about (giving the example from Poland) would, in Campbell`s terms, be called improper didactic art. It`s intended to educate, inform and instruct. Am I right? I guess this is just one of many art theories. I guess punk rock music would be that form too?

[SpectralTiger]

Rothalion, on 17 March 2011 - 12:14 PM, said:

'The mind is arrested and raised above desire and loathing.'

So 'Proper' art raises us above desire and loathing? and fear....would a mystic therefore be put off by improper art?  Reminds of Eyefalls again. He always reiterated that when looking at art or creating art one should ask "What does this do for me?"

If a mystic creates a work that inspires/moves one down a path toward mysticism would that then be pornographic?

If we look at the video in terms of didacticity...no never mind that for now...why 'is' the gimp chasing Jared? Why is he dressed like that if he is seemingly defending the bondage women? He did not put the photos at the door. Is he the PIMP? Is he propriety hidden...now I have to watch again...Tomo's guy and Jared's guy are different... For that matter Tomo's guy reminds me of Shannon...so for a Rambling train of thought blurb.

Is the chimp+Jared scene connected to the bondage woman+Jared scene, ie is the chimp really defending the bondage woman or is he just there to fight Jared in `a different dream`? I personally think those two are not connected and that the chimp guy is representing the corporate machine which Jared is fighting. The didacticism in that is blatant: the corporate machine is bad, kick its ass!