[Kelissima]

I have two main reasons for starting this thread:

1. Some of us like to talk about sex more than others and in more detail than some people are comfortable with.
2. I’ve been wanting to start a thread about Erotica Vs. Porn and discuss/debate the differences.

So let’s just kill two birds with one stone… (and Happy VD btw ).


In an attempt to keep this topic from getting too out of hand (or deleted), let’s establish some guidelines (which I hope will not be a total exercise in futility):


Rule #1: ALL Pictures/Videos containing Strong/Explicit Sexual Content MUST be LINKED and have a DESCRIPTION. Unless it is the type of image you’d see in the main gallery of a National Museum, Link and Describe It. It doesn‘t need to be a long description; just mention the thing about it that is most likely to make people uncomfortable.

[I want both Links and Descriptions because, frankly, some days even I am not in the mood to see a guy fellate himself… kthx. Although I generally detest “porn“, I don’t mind seeing it sometimes for the sake of discussion but: I. Want. To. Have. A. Choice.]

Rule #2: DO NOT post sexual fantasies (or fan fiction) involving any 30stm band members. It will just lead to your post and/or the entire thread being deleted.

Rule #3: DO NOT post links to “shock sites” (or pics/vids that could be described as such). While these images are frequently “pornographic”, most/many people do not find them pleasing to see. If you don’t know what “shock sites” are, I do not recommend doing a search as you may accidentally see images that will haunt and disgust you (they're really nasty--seriously).
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Erotica Vs. Pornography

My Master’s Thesis in Art History was comparing Eastern and Western Erotic Art in the 16th and 17th century so I’ve done a lot of research on these topics.

Generally, Erotica is considered to be sexually-related material that has artistic merit (and is often associated with “romantic love”) while Pornography is sexually-related material having little or no artistic merit and usually associated with the word “obscene” (something that is disgusting, repulsive, or depraved). And both words are also frequently defined as arousing sexual desire.

Obviously, these definitions are problematic. To conservatives/fundamentalists, anything with nudity or involving sexual expression can be termed obscene and is thus considered pornography. To the more liberal-minded, something that is “obscene” can also have artistic merit.

However, the word Pornography derives from pornographos, a Greek word which literally means “writing about harlots”. So the word Pornography is also intrinsically associated with sex as a commercial transaction, sex defined more as a commodity than just as part of human nature.


"In art, immorality cannot exist.
Art is always sacred"-August Rodin


I consider this drawing to be Erotica: Hokusai, Japanese, 18th-19th c.(the genitalia is very exaggerated and detailed, this is typical of Japanese erotic drawings)

I consider the video someone posted here recently of the guy fellating himself to be Porn (and no, I'm not gonna go look for it--it's pretty self-explanatory imo )

What do you think?
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If you don't want to view the link or discuss erotica and pornography, you can just talk about sex...

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Dear Mods: If there is anything you think I need to edit or modify to keep this thread from being deleted, I am more than willing to do so...

*wonders if this is just going to be deleted anyway... sigh*

[Dr Frostbite]

This has never been done before.

[Kelissima]

This has never been done before.

Is that a good thing?

[ferro_man]

Is that a good thing?

he was being sarcastic

[jmig]

I just popped a movie in, but I will come back and talk to you soon.

item 2. Agreed the definitions are problematic, too subjective what is erotic vs porn I think. It really is an individual thing. I am not very bothered by either. I have seen my share of porn (lots of male roommates) and while I am not bothered by it, it is geared for men and fetishes etc. At least the bits I have seen. I know there is a whole genre of "lady porn", perhaps that is more erotica? I have never seen any.

I also agree with your considerations noted as to how you define each.

Anais Nin? Erotica or Porn? How about Henry Miller.

Ok, I'll be back.

[Leavchip]

I've had too much wine to participate in here tonight, but it will be an interesting thread I am sure... if it doesn't go poof...

[Kelissima]

item 2. Agreed the definitions are problematic, too subjective what is erotic vs porn I think. It really is an individual thing. I am not very bothered by either. I have seen my share of porn (lots of male roommates) and while I am not bothered by it, it is geared for men and fetishes etc. At least the bits I have seen. I know there is a whole genre of "lady porn", perhaps that is more erotica? I have never seen any.

I also agree with your considerations noted as to how you define each.

Anais Nin? Erotica or Porn? How about Henry Miller.

Ok, I'll be back.

Bolded: that's part of why porn bothers me. It's geared toward men and fetishes in a way that objectifies both women and human sexuality. The other part is the lack of artistic merit--the movies are usually poorly written, directed and acted.

RE: "lady porn", I know there is a whole genre of it but I really am only interested in movies that are generally defined as "erotica".

I've read both Anais Nin and Henry Miller (but not recently) and consider them to be erotica mainly because they are good writers.

[ZOMG!]

I think THIRTYSECONDSTOMARS will be around more often.

[ANGELofVENGEANCE]

IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME, THUS FAR. PROCEED CAREFULLY.

[El Kabong]

Bolded: that's part of why porn bothers me. It's geared toward men and fetishes in a way that objectifies both women and human sexuality. The other part is the lack of artistic merit--the movies are usually poorly written, directed and acted.

You're telling me Dirk Diggler and Reed Rothchild couldn't act?

[jmig]

Bolded: that's part of why porn bothers me. It's geared toward men and fetishes in a way that objectifies both women and human sexuality. The other part is the lack of artistic merit--the movies are usually poorly written, directed and acted.

RE: "lady porn", I know there is a whole genre of it but I really am only interested in movies that are generally defined as "erotica".

I've read both Anais Nin and Henry Miller (but not recently) and consider them to be erotica mainly because they are good writers.

I think it only objectifies those who allow it too, if that makes sense. And yes there is zero artistic or intelligent merit to porn. It is purely for some carnal pleasure. Low budget, horrid lighting, usually unattractive actors as well as everything else you mentioned. Hence it does not appeal to me, but I am not offended by it. Well in general, I am sure there is some I would find offensive.

Agreed on both writer's also. Although both good writer's and relative to one another - each has a unique style. I think Miller could almost border on pornographic just by nature of his choice of words. It has been a while since I read the Tropic's books, but I pick up Nin from time to time.

[Kelissima]

IT DOESN'T BOTHER ME, THUS FAR. PROCEED CAREFULLY.

Thank you for responding . Could you be little more specific about what you mean by "carefully"?

eh, i don't have a problem with porn. if it bothers you, and i don't mean to be rude, but shouldn't you just not watch it? unless it's an under aged kid or something, then i don't really care it's going on. and men get objectified in porn too, so.

And that is why I don't watch pornographic films, because they bother me. In terms of magazines and stuff, I found my dad's Playboy magazines when I was pretty young (7 or 8). I spent much more time reading them than actually looking at the pictures (lulz) but honestly, I do think Playboy has much more artistic merit than other "porn" magazines. I remember also finding a Hustler or two here and there and even when I was that young I was put off by the poorer quality of the photos and the writing--it just seemed gross compared to Playboy.

Yes, men get objectified in porn too, because the whole point of it is that the body is just an object for sexual gratification and the images are created as quickly and cheaply as possible just to make the most money possible; sex basically becomes an artless and emotionless spectacle (the emotion that is portrayed is contrived and artificial). It reinforces the assumption that sex is bad and dirty. Honestly, I blame the Victorians for that aspect of it.

Why do we need porn, is it really necessary? Why do we need to dehumanize sexuality... because that is what I think porn does.

[Kelissima]

You're telling me Dirk Diggler and Reed Rothchild couldn't act?

I have no idea! I liked Boogie Nights though.

I think it only objectifies those who allow it too, if that makes sense. And yes there is zero artistic or intelligent merit to porn. It is purely for some carnal pleasure. Low budget, horrid lighting, usually unattractive actors as well as everything else you mentioned. Hence it does not appeal to me, but I am not offended by it. Well in general, I am sure there is some I would find offensive.

Agreed on both writer's also. Although both good writer's and relative to one another - each has a unique style. I think Miller could almost border on pornographic just by nature of his choice of words. It has been a while since I read the Tropic's books, but I pick up Nin from time to time.

In the making of it, I agree with you (but that's a different issue). But I still think the finished product objectifies human sexuality--there is very little of the subjective experience of having sex, if that makes any sense.

Henry Miller's language didn't bother me, the crudity of his writing as I remember has a humorous and sarcastic tone. Nin got on my nerves for some reason but it had nothing to do with sexuality (I think I just found the tone in her diaries rather arrogant and condescending--can't remember).

[AxeGoddess]

I read a lot of Nin. Her diaries are a really interesting look into a woman who had sexual identity issues. She was completely in love with June Miller, but did not consider herself a lesbian per se. She apparently had incestuous relations with her cousin, but then there was a possibility that she had been molested by her father, I believe. She loved her husband but carried on an affair with Miller for years (Henry not June) and also with a couple of other men. I find her fascinating, and as for her tone, I think a lot of writers of that era sort of felt tragic and superior.

I love Miller just because of his brashness. He was edgier, definitely, than Nin, who was a bit more flowery and poetic.

My first exposure to any sort of erotica was actually The Story of O by Pauline Reage. It was quite shocking at 17 years old to read this sort of thing. Would one consider such a sado-masochistic work porn or erotica? When it was first published, it was banned because it was said to objectify women, but the heroine consented to being treated the way she was because of the love she felt for her suitor, who put her through it. Is it objectification if it's a willing and conscious choice?

An interesting fact--the actual author, Anne Desclos, wrote this as a love letter to her lover, who was married to someone else. She was also married. It was her way of saying that she would put herself through the most painful torture just to be with him.

Lady Chatterly's Lover--D.H. Lawrence's novel was also banned for many years for obscenity. Porn or erotica? Anne Rice's Sleeping Beauty Trilogy is sometimes seen as some of her best work but I find it more intense than some of the erotica-cum-porn that I've read.

I mean if you read trashy romance novels, the synonyms for the human genitalia border on ridiculous. "Quivering member" and the like. But does that make it erotic, whereas an author using edgier language (forgive if this offends) such as cock, or the other C word (I won't use it because I know some women have issue with it) might be seen as more pornographic because of the reactions on an average basis by most of the general public.

I suppose it's subjective.

Same with film. Obviously Jenna Jameson's work would be considered Porn. So would Ron Jeremy.

What about movies like 9 1/2 Weeks, Wild Orchid, even Unfaithful (because that was a pretty hot movie)?

I think the easy call here is the amount of camera angles focused on the genitalia. Plot is probably indicative as to whether it's porn or erotic cinema. But is it?

Hmm good discussion.

[HipMomster]

hmmm....believe it or not, i've never seen porn.

just a few seconds of it on a cable channel before it got scrambled.

i think i'm much rather view erotica.

[Kelissima]

I read a lot of Nin. Her diaries are a really interesting look into a woman who had sexual identity issues. She was completely in love with June Miller, but did not consider herself a lesbian per se. She apparently had incestuous relations with her cousin, but then there was a possibility that she had been molested by her father, I believe. She loved her husband but carried on an affair with Miller for years (Henry not June) and also with a couple of other men. I find her fascinating, and as for her tone, I think a lot of writers of that era sort of felt tragic and superior.

I love Miller just because of his brashness. He was edgier, definitely, than Nin, who was a bit more flowery and poetic.

I haven't seen Henry and June in years but I remember it was one of my favorite erotic movies for a long time. I'm curious now to see it again.

My first exposure to any sort of erotica was actually The Story of O by Pauline Reage. It was quite shocking at 17 years old to read this sort of thing. Would one consider such a sado-masochistic work porn or erotica? When it was first published, it was banned because it was said to objectify women, but the heroine consented to being treated the way she was because of the love she felt for her suitor, who put her through it. Is it objectification if it's a willing and conscious choice?

An interesting fact--the actual author, Anne Desclos, wrote this as a love letter to her lover, who was married to someone else. She was also married. It was her way of saying that she would put herself through the most painful torture just to be with him.

Heard of it but never read it. Frankly, I don't think the sado-masochistic theme alone would make it porn. My boyfriend in high school found a porn novel that his dad had that I read. It was a bunch of short stories and it was definitely porn--hardcore sex and torture scenes with no real plot or nuanced meaning.

Did a quick search and The Story of O won a major literary prize in 1955; that alone indicates to me that I would probably consider it erotica. I've been friends with two women who were professionally involved in s/m--one was a submissive and one was a dominatrix. The submissive was actually my roommate for several months. One night she told me beforehand that she and her boyfriend were gonna have rough sex so I wouldn't freak out and call the police. It didn't freak me out because she had made it perfectly clear to me that she was not only willing but also enjoyed it but uh, yeah, it was seriously weird to hear it going on in the next room .

Anyone ever read Jaqueline Carey's Kushiel series (Kushiel's Dart is the first book)? The heroine is a courtesan who is a submissive; she is also trained as a spy and eventually becomes a national hero. It is my favorite series of erotic literature and it has a lot of s/m in it but it is not even close to being porn as far as I'm concerned. I lovelovelove this series. It also depicts a culture where prostitution is sacred--the religion she creates in these books is beautifully realized and complex.

Laurell K. Hamilton's Anita Blake series however (the heroine is a vampire slayer) is much closer to porn than Carey's books; it has less s/m in it but I cannot honestly say they would qualify as erotica simply because the later books have so much gratuitous sex and the writing just isn't that good. However, I can't even tell you how many times I've read some of those books (and there's 16 books... ). Honestly, she writes too fast to put out quality work (Obsidian Butterfly is probably the best in that series imo and there's almost no sex in it whatsoever. She also did an erotic series based on the fey but I only read part of one book--couldn't get into that at all.

[Kelissima]

hmmm....believe it or not, i've never seen porn.

just a few seconds of it on a cable channel before it got scrambled.

i think i'm much rather view erotica.

I've seen part of maybe 3 porn movies. Just...ewww.

Erotic films: I really like Young Adam and The Pillow Book (honestly, Ewan McGregor's willingness to do full frontal nudity is a gift from god... ).

[AxeGoddess]

hmmm....believe it or not, i've never seen porn.

just a few seconds of it on a cable channel before it got scrambled.

i think i'm much rather view erotica.

It isn't unheard of.

I am just a curious person so I wanted to see what the fuss was about. I find it all quite comical myself.

I prefer a tastefully done erotic film, just because I really don't need to see everything. I have a pretty vivid imagination. I mean I can write my own smut (and do and have) if I feel the whim. *shrugs*

[Lily_17]

Without delving into the concept of fanfiction and the like, I find it interesting that the majority of porn seems to be geared towards men, but the erotica in story form seems to be geared towards (even written by/for) women.

Why do you think that is?